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 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop

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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:52 pm

get well first lizard anything else can wait until then
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T2H
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:05 pm

Heal up man, I have a tendency to push too hard on projects and I am not getting any younger and my body pays the penalty when I over do it.
I try real hard now to watch how I work so I do not over stress, as well have had my fair share of back pain just from building with steel.
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:59 am

Thanks all for the well wishes.

It all just happened from picking up 1 supply box for the admin. staff to carry to the storage closet for them.  I've lifted 4 times as much weight with no problems but this time something went wrong when I attempted to pick it up.  I don't normally have base spine issues, I usually have T4 issues (between my shoulder blades) on a regular basis since I was 21 yrs. old.  

But I'm finally recovering from it and I'll be getting back to the project this week again.  Just need to make the ash compartment door and hinge setup and then it's ready to be test fired.  I keep thinking about the secondary air feed, I know my design is weak (no preheat on it) so I've been kicking around how I could install another system on the unit without too much problem.  So far I've drawn a blank.  The riser pipe is completely welded into the base casing and the firebox flame tube is also welded into the riser and also welded into the base.  It would take tons of grinding to get the riser tube freed up so I could fit a secondary pipe from the side of the riser and draw air from the firebox flame tube.  Only thing I could come up with is a fan driven system and run piping over the flame tube and down under the base to where I have a second pipe welded under the riser tube.   (I'll have to get photos of the secondary pipe, I don't think you can see it from any of the photos I've posted so far.  Here's a quick drawing looking down the riser at where the hole is located at.

" />
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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:08 am

use box section running from the back to the front and from the front to the back along your secondary burn chamber as this will preheat your secondary air twice
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ROACH

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PostSubject: re: 30lb rocket heater for shop   Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:40 pm

please dont put it there it can reverse draft on you, try putting it in the burn chamber it will heat up more get better results remember you can put to much secondary air in or in the wrong place test first  without tank on to see if it works good i can be wrong though it looks it can backdraft
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Tue Feb 03, 2015 12:31 pm

Roach, it's already located under the base of the riser tube but I built it so it can be capped off if I decide not to use it or it doesn't work correctly.  


UPDATE:  I finished the ash compartment door after work, just need to sandblast it and put a coat of HTP on it before gluing the furnace cord around the channel on the door for the seal.  Still need to build the hinges (tomorrow's project after work) and mount them also.  I'll get all of that done tomorrow, I can put a coat of HTP on the door first thing in the am before work and it should be dry by noon so I can apply the high temp glue for the gasket/cord.  Still need to make a closer device for the door.  Will probably just bend a 3/8" rod into a handle and have a tab that locks on to a tab on the side of the ash box.  Figure I can weld a few beads on the tab and grind a slope in them so the rod slides into a V between the welds and locks the door shut.  (photos coming tomorrow night I promise)  I get so busy on the project I forget to take photos. Sorry about that.
I'll have to bend up a cooling coil handle for the closure. I think I have some 3/16" rod I can use for that, just need to figure out how to shape it into a football shape so I can weld it to the 3/8" handle.
Has anyone ever built one of those cooling coils for door closures?  It's like the below photo:
" />
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:17 pm

Today's the big burn!  Right after work this afternoon I'll be firing up the RH to test it.  I'll try to get some video of it vs photos.  
I completed my ash compartment door yesterday afternoon and I'm not pleased with it's outcome so I'll be grinding most of it off after the test run and redoing it.  I've decided to use a industrial valve handle in the design, which I think will work but the issue I had was everything is not welded up square (in too much of a hurry it seems).  Once I set the base unit back on it's legs (I had it laying on it's side to do the welding) I realized that it wasn't even close to being square on the handle side of things.  If I'm going to build this, I'm going to do it right or not at all.



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T2H
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:41 am

Looks pretty darn good man, will be cool to see it in action and see what kind of temps you are getting.

All that matters is you are getting a clean burn and the heat that you need!

Also pretty darn heavy duty work table you got there.
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:33 pm

Well it's official....I'm a 15 minute idiot!!

So I decided to set the RH on top of the welding table and use the exhaust fan to remove any fumes while testing the RH. I used the gas rosebud to light the wood and to help heat the firebox and riser. First thing that happened was the flame started running up the feed tube so I blocked it off. But most of the smoke was leaking around the metal I had sitting on top of the tube and there wasn't that much going out the riser tube. So I found a flat piece of metal to attempt to seal the feed tube better and that worked. So I checked the firebox, the wood was burning but not at a high rate. There was zero flames in the riser tube but there was some smoke coming out of it. I finally decided that the smoke was going to be an issue going out the exhaust fan at work and I decided to put the fire out quickly. Once the fire was out and I was standing in a small lake of water...I realized my 15 minutes of being an idiot.... I forgot to plug the secondary pipe under the riser with a plug cap. The air was back-feeding into the firebox via the riser and pushing the flame up the feed tube.
I'll be loading up the RH and taking it home for testing today after work. I was too focused on the issue of being at work lighting a RH in the welding room, than I was on tuning the RH and making sure everything was set correctly on it for the burn. I'll just burn it at home and then bring it back to work to finish it up.
Needless to say before I left work yesterday afternoon I screwed the plug on the secondary intake pipe under the riser base. I can't believe I forgot about it before starting the fire, I knew I needed to plug that hole up and yet I completely forgot about it. So burn testing will be rescheduled for tonight.

Trying2Hard: Yes it is a nice welding table but in a rather poorly setup room at work. The table should be in the center of the room so a person can work around the whole table but they have it pushed up against a wall and have equipment setting on the table. What i'd give to have most of what's in the room at work... Miller plasma cutter, 251X Miller Mig w/alum. spool gun and they also have a trailer Lincoln Arc welder w/mig attachment (probably has 25 hrs on it and is over 10 years old but looks brand new). It's one of the reasons why I'm doing the work on my RH at work, the only thing I have at home is a 135 mig. I'm sure I could make it work but why when I have access to much nicer equipment to use instead and I can work in a heated shop too.
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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:17 pm

nice build i have seen it done by ppotty



but was updated


just incase you decide to change your mind

nice build though

the way i can see you preheating that secondary air is to use the updown method using box section connected to the secondary air pipe i would do 2 ups and 2 downs before connecting to the secondary air
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:55 am

Hey man several of us have had the same experience!
Feed tube turning into a chimney.

Its a good teacher:>)
Scary as hell to eh?
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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:21 am

ive had that from my feed box

but i did find the feed box when gassing off had to be so careful that the gas didnt catch alight as the flame on that thing flys fast

ive had much worse t2h a gas canister that flared back into bottle and been on a roof 4 floors high using a gas torch and being careful not to step off the edge while flaring the gun or rolling the torch on felt its sort of unerving doing that
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ROACH

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PostSubject: re: 30lb rocket heater for shop   Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:24 am

well how did the firing go,it is raining here i have not been able to make a new basket for mine yet as i am working in my driveway i need to make a metal brake
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:18 pm

OK here's the first update for what it's worth.

1. I did get it to burn better than the first go-around after I closed that secondary hole under the riser.
2. My off-set flame tube going to the riser did not produce a vortex flame in the riser. The flame just pretty much went straight up the riser.
3. Best production during the test I had flames 3/4's up the riser
4. Worst production during the test I had no flames coming into the riser.
5. The burn wasn't steady, I'm not sure if the wind had anything to do with it or not but at certain times the flames would die down and the smoke would increase. If I stirred the sticks around in the firebox the flame would kick up again and the smoke would go away.
6. It appears that some of the flame is going down into the ash compartment and then back up in the fire tube just before the riser. Like it's by-passing the main sticks (going under them) and then popping up between them and the riser.
7. My grating is not wide enough so I'll need to add 1 additional flat bar to one side so there's no gaps between the grating and the wall. I had a few sticks fall between the two and ended up in the ash compartment area.
8. I still have excessive amounts of smoke wanting to go up the feed tube even when I have a plate covering it. If I cover the air intake opening in front and take the cover off the feed tube, it does pull air down the tube but every so often smoke still comes up out of the feed tube.
9. The fire tube between the feed tube and the riser did get hot (discoloration to the metal) after only about a 20-30 minute burn.

I'm going to do another burn tomorrow and I'll video tape it, maybe someone can pin-point what's going wrong with the design and how I can fix it without too much grinding and cutting on the structure.
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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Sun Feb 08, 2015 9:00 pm

lizard try a few things here

close your feed tube at top try a burn in your bottom tube only where your grate is if this is working better then try your feed tube

on your bottom tube it quotes air intake try sealing this one when you are running the feed tube at top so no air is going into it

my test is done with a closed tube ive never tried your type of burner

could you put up a pic as well of how it would look with the closed parts on it please if theres air going in the bottom tube it could be this causing your issues

sounds silly does this one but how high is your chimney flue does it go straight up on exiting the gas bottle

further query did you use ppottys flick into your vortex tube

this is roughly the same size but i used secondary inside of the secondary burn chamber

http://woodstoves.forumotion.co.uk/t395-help-needed-with-small-build-rs

my vids are downloadable so download to your pc and watch with vlc player

also review this as well

http://woodstoves.forumotion.co.uk/t527-question-on-j-tube-and-base-plate
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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:04 am

Second burn update (video to come)

So I fired it up for about 75 minutes burning Oak and Pine both.  Here's my thoughts on what's going on and hopefully once I upload the video you'll see some of what I'm talking about.

1. The grating goes too far behind the feed tube towards the fresh air intake, this is causing the draft to push the flames down into the ash compartment and around the rest of the wood.  Which in turn causes low burns to the main wood. If there's a wall of wood in the fire chamber section, the draft goes under it and backup to the flame tube to the riser.  2 things can happen, 1. It reduces the overall burn because the flames from the front wood go down into the ash compartment and then push back up to the flame tube between the main wall of wood and the riser.  2. If the draft doesn't have any wood in the front area of the grating, the draft just goes down into the ash compartment and by-passes all the wood causing major smoke and the flame to go out on the main wood.  
See drawing:


2. Next I believe my burn/flame chamber between my feed tube and the riser is too long. The reason I believe that is because of the size of my burn/flame tube and feeder tube, it's not producing a large amount of flames because I'm only feeding it a small supply of wood vs most RH's that have a large feed/burn chamber which produces a lot of flames. The foot print of my burn chamber is less than 3 inches square (76.2mm square)

3. The lack of an angled piece at the end of the flame tube going into the riser is probably the reason there's not a vortex in the riser. Off setting the flame tube only gave me a tiny curl on the left side of the flames in the riser 7/8's of the fire goes straight up the riser.


Let me figure out how to download this video from my camera and upload it to my youtube channel and then I'll post it up here.
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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:20 am

if you think thats whats happening just slot a piece of thin ss metal sheet over some of your grating or even some of thin sheet metal should do it then see what happens from there

at least if you test it you know what changes it needs

a rough reference for you i have used a 2" opening or just a little bit more but i have sent 4 3/4 into the 4" vortex chamber

as goes for the back chamber up to you but id leave it alone unless you want to take apart but if you want to reduce it id just cut a slot in top and slot a piece of steel into it then weld it up again
depends on how much the vortex is important to you to use
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 5:01 am

OK, here's the first video...please forgive me I haven't uploaded a video in years or filmed a clip in years so it's not the best.

You can see the plate I added in front of the grating to help stop the draft from going into the ash compartment. That did work but it didn't help the flame amount into the riser at all.





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gadily
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:04 am

you have a leak of air from somewhere once you moved the cardboard seal to the bottom they should have been no smoke coming out of the feeder tube

if you do you have a leak of air somewhere

from what im seeing at looking at your system from the tube line into vortex tube i see a rise of flame over your grating

at this point id double back for the moment put a plate over the grate and build a fire a little deeper in the tube as close to the vortex pipe as possible up to ceiling of the tube

you should have something looks like this

http://woodstoves.forumotion.co.uk/t62p15-secondary-air#2373

without secondary air

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pyasiztu7bg3i5k/VID%2000014-20140316-1404.3GP

if you want try a piece of 1"x1" if you have any spare round or square tube to put inside of the firebox going to the vortex tube and it should look like this if you do

with secondary air

https://www.dropbox.com/s/g1ek1luxw4uw4bd/DSCF5137.AVI?dl=0

same test but flames are close to the vortex tube the fire is only built at the reduction area of my tubing

both of these tests test your pull on the chimney then pull the metal plate back until you lose the length of flame like you said you could be too far away but i dont think it is i think you have an air leak somewhere on your system as coming back up your feeder tube with smoke







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Lizard



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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:51 am

I've been thinking about the leak issue you suggested... the only thing that I can think of that isn't welded tight is the riser tube, I don't believe I welded it on the bottom, I just butted the bottom to the riser tube and welded that to the base. Guess I can attempt to stuff something around the pipe at the bottom to test it. The reason I didn't weld it was because I was planning on using refractory cement and filling in the whole base around the riser tube.


What's the ratio of air intake vs firebox vs riser size? Could my fresh air intake be too much (equal to the firebox and flame tube going to the riser) or Is it not enough?
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:24 am

i dont know lizard

30" systems and higher work with 9x9x9 box and ppottys is higher and bigger but still a 9x9x9 burn box and garys system works the same way however we have convection on our air inputs which aid the system by pushing air into the system

my 9x9x9 firebox failed due to the 17" vortex tube but might not have failed due to my chimney pipe being long and laid across a garden floor before the height of 8ft was used

my system effectively stalled out and put itself out due to possibly 2 reasons the chimney or too much air in the system to move down into the chimney the width of gas bottle is 12" or 14" wide
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:29 pm

From what i can see on your video lizard,
1 The feed tube is too tall for the riser height, the heat in the two are competing and trying to vent up.
2 The entrance to the riser is small and the sticks are blocking the flow of air.
3 The entrance to the riser is quite long for its size so i doubt the flame will enter the riser.


A quick fix would be to place another piece of pipe on top of the riser and see what happens that should fix 1

2, cover the feed tube leave it empty and place some sticks in the air passage light them, that should also fix 3.

wrap some insulation around riser base to get it hotter, improves draught.

let us know what happens if you try this.



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ROACH

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PostSubject: re: 30lb rocket heater for shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:17 pm

the first thing i noticed if you are going to burn long pieces of wood you need to put a plate into the fuel chamber for air ,close off end of burn chamber only one inch of air mine is different because of using pellets in a basket i can switch to burn chuncks of wood also but i have to close off the end of burn chamber also on mine the tubing is all same size no round pipe all 5 x 5 tubing i had four foot flames coming out of riser
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PostSubject: Re: 30 lb propane cylinder rocket heater for small shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:33 pm

Going to cut off the square piping from the riser and ash compartment, go up to the metal company and get a larger piece of square tubing to build a vertical firebox and use the ash compartment section to butt right up against the riser and set the firebox on top of it. I'll work on some drawings and run it by ya'll before I start welding it up.

Of course I think I could fix the issue if I added a small electric fan to the air intake, whether that's in the feed tube or in the front air intake. Either one would push the flames into the riser but pushing the air down the feeder tube would probably solve the back draft up the tube. I'd just have to seal the original fresh air intake opening (no need for it if I'm pumping in air in the feeder tube).
But I'm realizing that my feed tube is way too small to get any type of good flame up the riser without me babysitting the flame all the time. A larger firebox would resolve this issue I think.
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PostSubject: re: 30lb rocket heater for shop   Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:09 pm

try what tritowns told about sq inches being more or the same on your riser dont get mad at it yet got to find the problem to make it work
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