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 Bezman Burner or it will be

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Bezman

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PostSubject: Bezman Burner or it will be    Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:19 am

OK people, here we go, this is as far as I have got with my first attempt at a rocket stove. I will post these pictures but I also have a couple of questions, requests for direction. So, if anyone has any ideas or thoughts about what I need to do next that would be hugely appreciated. Oh, no ridicule regards the welding either......it would appear as though a career in metal work doesn't beckon!  tongue

Pic 1 - The beginning - 47kg gas bottle with a smaller camping gas bottle inverted on the top, this conveniently facilitates a camping kettle or a frying pan very comfortably - absolute laziness once installed in the man cave (workshop).

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Pic 2 - Cuts made (115mm angle grinder with 0.8mm metal disc - nice clean cuts (even for me!)

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Pic 3 - J section. This is 100x100x6mm mild steel. Cuts were made with the same 115mm angle grinder hence the rubbish mitre angle for the feed section.

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This is the first of my questions;
The intention was to put a standard chimney flue liner around this and fill the gap with something like vermiculite / perlite or maybe even sand? Some guidance on this would be appreciated please. What have others insulated their internal burn upright with please?

Pic 4 - Bottles welded together, and the exhaust flue has been added (part of it anyway) this is 5" flue pipe that was left over from our wood burning stove that was installed a couple of years ago.

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Pic 5 - Bottle assembled (without a joining weld!).

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Question 2: I have cut off the upright that was going to be a feed tube as I found that the burn was taking place directly in that section with zero draw through the upright and into the bottle / chimney section. Thoughts / direction would be appreciated.
For what it is worth, now that I have cut the feed tube off the draw is fantastic, so I was going to extend the horizontal sections slightly (more crap welding from me!, then place a less aggressive angled feed tube on the top but keeping a draw opening at the front of the additional section that I am going to add (the horizontal part).

Pic 6 - Cheeky little test burn.

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OK, so this weekend I took the plunge and used an additional steel tube to hold the vermiculite insulation for the burn riser

Pic 7 - Riser insulation & Tube

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I now need to extend the burn chamber and then add a feed tube, all in all I am happy with this so far, only concern I have now is actually moving this thing into the workshop - thing weight a bit..... :suspect: 

I will add the final few pictures in the sequence when it is all finished and painted up. Thanks for looking everyone.

Bezman
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2ndburn

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:19 am

santa Hi, Please stop ..look at your secondary burn before you weld? ...go look at this vid on utube: ..at the end of this vid it shows HOT secondary air entering the riser ..this is what you nead to add to your pic no3 ! ..or your own version of something very similar:  rendeer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQH0iHmNJ4
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:11 am

Should all work well Bez once you get it set up, lots of rockets on utube use this design so your fire box/ feed tube should come up either vertical or out on an angle, put a door on top to prevent back burn when you light it, such as the one in 2ndburns vid above sec air is a good idea. A door at the bottom would achieve that , also essential to light the fire and clean out the ash.
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:16 pm

Bezman wrote:
This is the first of my questions;
The intention was to put a standard chimney flue liner around this and fill the gap with something like vermiculite / perlite or maybe even sand? Some guidance on this would be appreciated please. What have others insulated their internal burn upright with please?

Question 2: I have cut off the upright that was going to be a feed tube as I found that the burn was taking place directly in that section with zero draw through the upright and into the bottle / chimney section. Thoughts / direction would be appreciated.
For what it is worth, now that I have cut the feed tube off the draw is fantastic, so I was going to extend the horizontal sections slightly (more crap welding from me!, then place a less aggressive angled feed tube on the top but keeping a draw opening at the front of the additional section that I am going to add (the horizontal part).

Bezman


Answer 1 - I do not think that rocket stove heaters need any insulation of riser tubes because they are already inside a hot environment. Indeed insulation may increase stove efficiency but I think it is more relevant for a cooking rocket stove where you need your flame the hottest. According to an article on wikipedia insulation increases rocket stove efficiency by 2%. If you install secondary air, the efficiency of the stove will be well above 2% (you can check it in one of Pekka's videos).

Answer 2 - You can keep the upright vertical tube. Just build a lid to cover it while lighting the stove. Open a door for the horizontal tube to light the stove and while lighting it, keep it open. Five minutes after the stove is going you can close the door of the horizontal tube and keep the door of the vertical tube always open.
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:48 pm

caotropheus wrote:
Bezman wrote:
This is the first of my questions;
The intention was to put a standard chimney flue liner around this and fill the gap with something like vermiculite / perlite or maybe even sand? Some guidance on this would be appreciated please. What have others insulated their internal burn upright with please?

Question 2: I have cut off the upright that was going to be a feed tube as I found that the burn was taking place directly in that section with zero draw through the upright and into the bottle / chimney section. Thoughts / direction would be appreciated.
For what it is worth, now that I have cut the feed tube off the draw is fantastic, so I was going to extend the horizontal sections slightly (more crap welding from me!, then place a less aggressive angled feed tube on the top but keeping a draw opening at the front of the additional section that I am going to add (the horizontal part).

Bezman
Great observation Caotropheus, I agree.


Answer 1 - I do not think that rocket stove heaters need any insulation of riser tubes because they are already inside a hot environment. Indeed insulation may increase stove efficiency but I think it is more relevant for a cooking rocket stove where you need your flame the hottest. According to an article on wikipedia insulation increases rocket stove efficiency by 2%. If you install secondary air, the efficiency of the stove will be well above 2% (you can check it in one of Pekka's videos).

Answer 2 - You can keep the upright vertical tube. Just build a lid to cover it while lighting the stove. Open a door for the horizontal tube to light the stove and while lighting it, keep it open. Five minutes after the stove is going you can close the door of the horizontal tube and keep the door of the vertical tube always open.
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Bezman

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:24 pm

Guys,

Thanks for all the feedback and comments - very helpful. Like I said, this is my first attempt at a rocket stove. I have looked at more Youtube videos than I can remember. I Probably ended up confusing myself a bit if honest! However, I have absolutely enjoyed making this and I can only learn from your feedback and from others on this site. This won't be the only stove / heater that I make, as I have a couple of friends who were outrageously dubious to begin with, however all of a sudden they are asking questions about how I did it, does it work, could I make them one etc etc (not for profit clearly!) - funny how people change their opinions.

Anyway, I am today going to make some amendments (Secondary air.... :lol: small things like that). I will add these pics to the post.

Again, thanks everyone.  rendeer 

Bezman
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:06 am

My immediate thought with this size stove would be to discard the 100mm riser and the insulation and use the risers outer tube as the main riser(without insulate) and also scale up the burn chamber and feed, were the stove half the hieght then that 100mm riser would be fine. I can't help thinking that that size will not give you the heat output that it could achieve using that size internals. However if the space that you want to heat is not very big then that advice might bake you alive : ]

Looking good thought mate. What an exciting journey the first build is! And a feirce pride that comes with it too : ]


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Bezman

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:57 am

Gents,

It would appear as though the comments from all are proving to be spot on!

Secondary air is absolutely needed, however I still mulling over where / how best to do this given the stage of build that I am at.

I messed (literally) around yesterday and did a bit of welding (well, scorching steel with an arc stick anyway) and spay painted things and that was about as far as I got, whilst thinking things through - oh, and I burnt stuff too.......... :oops: 

The insulation riser and vermiculite / perlite has gone, and may not go back in. The temps are not the same as I was achieving the other day though. I guess I managed to get to 200 deg C, the other day I was managing high 280 / 290s. Might be different fuel though.

So, I may have to make the feed box larger (ideas welcomed), and defo need to add that secondary air! I have added a temp grill base to try to help things however I am not sure it did a great deal if honest. I have also added some slots to the bottom of the horizontal feed tube, again not sure what value (if any) they are adding.

Cheers Guys.

Bezman
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2ndburn

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:22 am

Hi Bezman, Have you added a clean out for the ash?  if you add a bigger fire box it will need a door to make it safe and help the draw. can you upload some pics/vid so we can see where you are with your build ..ppotty1 has the vids on you tube, I think this is the way you should go.
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:26 am

Bez, one thing limiting the heat output will be the size of the riser, 4" riser wont give the same temps to your exchanger as say a 6" riser, its surprising the difference between 5" and 6" on the builds I have done. If you have noticed a drop in temp since you took out the insulation it will be because the riser was hotter inside with insulation causing more updraught and a slightly better draw on the fuel. I did a vid on riser changes and adding sec air in my early builds, if you skip to 1m 50s you see me insulate the riser and the change it makes in an instant to the flame. This riser was 5". vid here..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt4M7zo9BH0
Hate to say it but for higher temps and bigger firebox go for a bigger riser. Maybe on your next build try a 7" if you want serious exchanger temps, my next rocket will have 7" riser for sure, I plan a cast refractory lining on the outside of it.
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Bezman

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Not quite sure why I feel I have to build another bottle, other than for friends who now seemingly all think they are the dogs danglies, but I feel I have to have a go at another heater using all of the stuff that I have learned from this one. Things like different size burn box to the riser, secondary air to name but two.

Ppotty - I am going to sound like a complete ludite by saying this but here goes....... I have no idea what a "cast refractory lining" is - it sounds damn impressive though! Off to google it now. EDIT - just googled it. So, would something like FIREBRICKS be in this category? If so, I have been thinking about these for mk II. They don't seem to be anywhere near as expensive as box sections steel either according to the prices on fleabay.

Cheers for the youtube link - I must have seen this before as I have seen all of the other videos related to rocket stoves at least twice each!

Cheers Guys.

Bez
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Bezman

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:14 pm

2ndburn wrote:
Hi Bezman, Have you added a clean out for the ash?  if you add a bigger fire box it will need a door to make it safe and help the draw. can you upload some pics/vid so we can see where you are with your build ..ppotty1 has the vids on you tube, I think this is the way you should go.

Hey 2ndburn - cheers for taking the time to answer.

No, I haven't added a clean out yet, but that is largely because nothing has been welded to the point of completion yet other than the two bottles together and the J section along with the additional bits that I did at the weekend, namely extending the burn chamber (horizontal bit) and adding in a feed tube. I will post some pics today assuming that we all survive the impending life threatening storm that we should all be expecting here in the UK, well if you listen to the news anyway!  scratch 

That said, I am amazed at how little fuel remains after a burn, either inside the burn box or indeed the riser / exhaust flue, even with my limited successes thus far I am well impressed with just how efficient these things are. I am guessing the stoves that have been made by people with a good idea as to what they are doing are incredibly economical in terms of heat return against fuel consumption.

Rgds

Bez
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:29 pm

Bezman wrote:
So, would something like FIREBRICKS be in this category? If so, I have been thinking about these for mk II. They don't seem to be anywhere near as expensive as box sections steel either according to the prices on fleabay.

Yes you could use firebrick, there are a couple of different types, one is lightweight more like thermalite block, this one is usually used for industrial heat ovens as it does not draw as much heat its a better insulator, the firebrick used in electric storage heaters for instance is solid and heavy and designed to soak up the heat, you would use that type for a thermal mass heat store.
I plan mixing perlite, sharp sand, chopped strand fibreglass, and cement to make my own and cast it around the riser. Will reinforce it with chicken wire mesh inside. You could make the riser without the steel lining.
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:35 am

ppotty1 Admin wrote:
Bezman wrote:
So, would something like FIREBRICKS be in this category? If so, I have been thinking about these for mk II. They don't seem to be anywhere near as expensive as box sections steel either according to the prices on fleabay.

Yes you could use firebrick, there are a couple of different types, one is lightweight more like thermalite block, this one is usually used for industrial heat ovens as it does not draw as much heat its a better insulator, the firebrick used in electric storage heaters for instance is solid and heavy and designed to soak up the heat, you would use that type for a thermal mass heat store.
I plan mixing perlite, sharp sand, chopped strand fibreglass, and cement to make my own and cast it around the riser. Will reinforce it with chicken wire mesh inside. You could make the riser without the steel lining.

 santa
 Hi,
    Sharp sand has impurities in it and at high temperature will melt into glass, you will need Pure silica-sand. Mix with clay as the binding agent and not cement because it contains calcium oxide and this will make it crack.
Mix silica sand 30%  and your high temperature clay 40% together until you have a mix that is NOT A WET MIX, this is important because, this mix needs to be loose when you add the perlite 30% but you want it all to hold together when you squeeze/compacted it.  Do not add any water after you add the perlite, as it needs to be porous, this is what your trying to achieve as this gives the best insulation.  Pack/ram!!  this mix into your mould or around whatever needs to be insulated. it needs to be compacted!!..let it dry for a day, then bring the temperature up slowly!! ..The percentages are to my own mix .. I have experimented with them and use this particular mix on my bench to braze with. I have heated different mixes % with propane, oxygen/acetylene this mix works best for me glows white hot and does not fall apart last long time.
 rendeer  Merry Christmas to all  rendeer
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sat Jan 04, 2014 4:16 am

Time for more pictures!!
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Bezman

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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:22 am

Wow - one of the RS forum gods has requested more pictures and progress updates.....who am I to ignore such a request!

OK - so after doing lots of forum reading and watching even more YouTube videos I have made the following changes. Remember please ladies and gents that this is still a work in progress, and that I am absolutely welcoming of your feedback / comments / thoughts / suggestions / recommendations.

I only get limited time to play in the workshop before "she who mustn't be named" gets all snooty at me so this is the progress today from a couple of hours effort. Enjoy, I certainly did.  Cool 

Under the covers she started the day looking like this - 4" steel box section L tube (sort of) and a 3" feed tube. The horizontal 4" has slots in the base to allow air to flow under any embers in the burn etc. There was also a 6" circular steel tube surrounding the box section that was used to hold vermiculite insulation, this has been removed - for now!



All of this has now come out, including the vermiculite for the time being in order to make way for a whole new burn box design and riser changes.

OK so this is a 'plate' that I will use to lay my fire board onto, notice I tried to be 'cute' with the cutting by just angle grinding 'slots' for it to slide into. It sort of worked, you will see in later pics.



It goes back as far as the gas bottle safety neck that I have reused as a footing - in this pic it is just tac welded. My friend has very kindly lent me a mig welder to play with (learn on!) - wow, how good are they :bounce:



In this next pic, I have taken a 'nick' out of the fire board where the 'fins' remain from the original burn chamber cuts. This is two fold in terms of design, 1) to act as a way to hold the burn chamber floor steady without having to do anything fancy regards attaching the sheet metal and the board (actually I don't have a clue as to how I would do it!  :oops: ), 2) I thought that the fins (as I have now called them), would act as a semi disruption to any air flow prior to hitting the riser tube etc in order to try and help get a good mixture going - this is the part where you can fall around laughing if I am way off in my thinking  :lol!: The overlap between the board and the sheet metal is there so that I can weld some sides on, I will be trying to create an enclosed firebox etc.



The fire board is also going to be used on the sides of the burn box too, here I have taken another nick out of it so that it runs the whole length of the base but is held in place by the 'fin' - hopefully my thought process is beginning to make sense (hey, humor me  :bball: )



I haven't made the cuts into the riser tube yet, and YES that is the 6" riser tube that I WAS using to act as insulation, it will now be used directly as the riser tube now - I will worry about insulating it tomorrow or next weekend. I do intend on covering the whole of the base of the bottle with vermiculite granules again so it will cover the first 3 - 4" or so up the riser. At the moment and at this stage it is all free standing with no final joins etc.



OK, so I got impatient and quickly cut the other firebox side, and cut a hole in the riser tube - at this point I decided to cut a hole / breather bar at the bottom of the fire board that would form the front (or back depending on how you view these things) that I thought would act as a sort of primary air - I have guessed that any secondary air would come from the side vents that I will fabricate into the sheet metal that would draw air in  and up the 'warm' sides of the insulation, then down / across the glass, yet to be made however before getting involved in any combustion - this next picture shows a test burn which I must admit worked far FAR better than I would have guess or dare I say it suggested  cheers The vapors that you can see are a combination of things but one of them is water evaporating from a tile that I was using as a temporary firebox top to ensure I was indeed getting a sideways (horizontal) burn towards the riser tube.



And this final video is a very quick look at what is happening down the riser tube remembering that it is 6" and not insulated etc - there is a 'sort' of swirl going on from those fins.........not really sure of the point I am trying to make here........... :sleep: 



Quick video update showing off how the fireboard performed (like any of you need it!)



And that is another first for me.....my first YouTube posted video......!

Cheers guys.

Bezman


Last edited by Bezman on Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bezman Burner or it will be    Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:29 pm

Luvvverly  cheers Nothing wrong with the burn now!
Was going to say that the steel you use to insulate the riser on the outside wont be subjected to anything like the temps inside the riser so very thin stuff holds up really well, id leave around an inch gap and fill with perlite or similar.
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