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 new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)

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aravaron



Posts : 93
Join date : 2013-12-18
Location : southern israel

PostSubject: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:37 am

hi everyone!
here is a rocket stove that i built last year and the square pipe iv'e used was too small, 6 x 6 cm ,
 " />

this time im intend to make a rocket stove little bit different then this one above, lucky i had all of you rocket stoves makers and explorers on youtube to study from, so i start with this two old boiler tanks:


and i drew this on sketchup - this is what i intend to make :



a view from a side :
" />

" />

the glass door in the front of the stove is supposed to be close at all time, maybe open only for lighting up , and the main door for feeding wood is on the top of the small tank which attached to the big one and between them a square
150mmX150mm   pipe "L" shaped/


now, i need help with the air intake - primary and secondary, where can i put those also for washing the glass door in in the front and also for secondary burn of the gas.? if you see i drew 3 holes on the sides of the feeding tube (the small tank) but im not sure about that..
many many thanks in advance and i'll be happy to share thoughts and impressions- this forum is great! ! geek
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:11 pm

Nice idea aravaron. Here is a series of suggestions:

1- Get a round riser tube 6 inch diameter and place vortex fins inside it. Take a look at my videos on Youtube to get ideas on how to make it. The vortex will allow you to get even more heat from your wood. The bottom of the "L" shape tube can still be the 150 X 150 mm square tube, only the riser has to be round.
2- The primary air has to enter just above the glass window, along the all width of the glass window. This way air is sucked down and washes the glass.
3- Two possibilities for the door to load wood. Either the door  has to be on the side of the combustion chamber and not at the top, otherwise every time you open the stove to load wood, smoke will come out, or the door at the top was to be about the same diameter as the chimney to avoid the same back draft problems.
4- Primary air is located just above the glass window. Make some sort of laminar air dispenser that directs air to the glass
5- Secondary air can be made with pipes inside the combustion chamber for example like the 3 openings you design, 2 pipes for each side of the combustion chamber. These pipes go down, bend towards the riser tube and release air just bellow the vortex. 20 mm or 20 mm X 20 mm square pipe for the secondary air is enough.
6- For each air supply, use valves to control air flow. It might happen that when you fire the stove you may have some back draft but with valves you can control this situation fairly easy.
7- Chimney has to be at least the same diameter as the riser tube. In this case 6 inch riser tube, 6 inch chimney.

Make same changes to your darwings and show us your new ideas.


Can you give us details why you are not so happy with the first stove?
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:27 pm

thanks caotropheus ! well the main reason i was not happy with the old stove that i made is simply because it didnt create enough heat and the feed tube which size is 6cmX6cm was too small for feeding large amount of fuel.. it worked realy good there was no smoke the air intake was strong but basically it didnt make enough heat.

thanks for the back draft warning, i didnt thought about that, i tink i'll put the door at the top and with the same size as the riser tube. about the vortex- im familier with your videos on youtube and ppoty and trying2hard - you all created slightly different vortex combination, can you tell me which one is better?
i also looked on videos by takeshi from japan , he created a beautiful vortex in his sroves.. but i dont know how.
thanks for all of your suggestion again! ill make some changes and post them soon
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:41 am

In all vortex inducing mechanisms there are advantages and disadvantages. The main advantage of the system I used is that I can use the space underneath the riser tube to load fuel. The way ppotty1 and trying2hard used to create their vortex is that you have to define a clear spacing for the combustion chamber. From this space gases and smoke flow to the riser tube. The first system allows a shorter combustion chamber, the later system allows a shorter riser tube.
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:35 am

hi caotropheus can you show me a a drawing of your vortex mechanism? i looked on the video that you did but i didnt understand if its a circle cut in the middle or ellipse ?
and another question- if im using 150mm*150mm combustion chamber and same size riser tube, does the chimney has to be the same?
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T2H
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Looks good, nice clean work, what did you use for the drawings?
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:08 pm

aravanron

The way I made the "vortex fins" template was by using Libreoffice Draw and Linux, but you can do the same in Microsoft Office Powerpoint and Windows. You take the exact measurement in mm of the internal diameter of the pipe. Then using some trigonometry you calculate the length of a 45 degree cross section of the riser tube using the formula

length=diameter/0,707106781 (This number is the value for cosine 45 degrees).

Then, you go to the software I just referred and you draw an ellipse, major axis (or length) the value you just obtained and minor axis (width=tube internal diameter) the same as the internal pipe diameter. Then you print in paper this ellipse, cut it it a scissors and copy the contours to the metal...simple.
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:14 pm

MANY THANKS! ACTUALLY LAST NIGHT I SIT AND "BRAKE MY HEAD" (IF THERE'S EXPRESSION IN ENGLISH FOR THAT) AND I FIGURE IT OUT:)
IM USING SKETCHUP 8 IN WINDOWS - ITS A GREAT PROGRAM, HELPED ME FOR MANY THINGS- HIGHLY RECOMMENDED !
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:11 pm



ok! ive made a little progress, i cut the basic materials for the feed tube, the burn chamber heat riser and heat exchanger, put fins inside the bottom of the heat riser to create the vortex (caotropheus style):



only spot welding for the moment, just for test burn and the vortex is working great!




im not sure if the vortex work good enough but its not air tight yet, only spot weld, and the fire was not strong enough
but maybe im wrong..
now attach all together with secondary & primary air, doors, maybe insulation- i have perlite (we grow peppers in it) but i agree with trying2hard on the insulation inside the heat exchanger- its very hot already inside there..
question- if the burn chamber and the heat riser is 150-160mm does the chimney have to be same size? because i only found 120mm chimney..
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:22 am

help is needed!
is there a better ratio between the lenght of the feeding tube to the lenght of riser and the lenght of the burnung chamber?

thanks to whome it will be..!
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:59 am

Once the stove is welded, it will work better. You need to bring hot secondary air, just underneath the vortex fins. Are the vortex fins welded 90 degrees one in relation to the other? do they enter at an angle of 45 degrees in relation to the riser tube? I make these questions because the angle that the fins sit in relation to the other and in relation to the riser tube will influence the speed the voprtex ascends in the riser tube. The experience I have is that chimeney diameter is at least the same diameter as the riser tube. Try to get a chimney 6 inch in diameter, that will work ok in your stove.

You're going to cut the riser tube, so it can fit inside the heat exchanger, right? Leave the riser tube taller than the fuel feeding chamber.

I do not know the relation between the different components dimensions but it seems that there are a lot of possibilities. This is an issue that requires some research to get the proper answers
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:32 am

actually the fins welded at 45 degrees one in relation to other..

i weld the feed tube, open a small door in the feed tube i light up the fire and ... i created many smoke.
only when i put the wood inside the combustion chamber its working good..
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:45 am

maybe 45 degrees fins is choking the fire
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ievolve



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:06 am

Just subscribed to you @aravaron, fun seeing you go from prototype to real performer! Excited to see the project progress.
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:30 pm

Without more pictures or a video of the different components of the stove and successive steps of the construction,  it is a bit difficult to help you. If you could make a video of the different components from different angles, that would help us a lot.

By the way, did you born already playing the harmonica?
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:16 pm

this is the rocket , still with no door on the top and on the front of the fuel chamber



i tried to light up a fire, closed the upper part of the fuel chamber and leave only a gap to allow air flow inside.
it didnt worked out.. lot of smoke,  no draft, so i decided to open a small door on the fuel chamber and light up again,
worked a little better but still - way far from expected.
caotropheus wrote about the fins- that they need to be at 90 degrees in relation to each other, i weld them only 45 which means a smaller space for the fire to flow up in the riser tube.
i decided to detach the fuel chamber and light a fire only in the burning chamber- it workd better-



as you can see their is  draft, but i think that if the fins will be at 90 degrees- alot more fire could get inside the riser
that means- im gonna take out the fins, weld new ones at 90 degrees as caotropheus suggest and hope for better well.. everything.

bye bye for now- post again when something develope
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:48 pm

and im on the guitar...:)
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Fri Dec 27, 2013 1:39 am

So after all, you borned playing guitar. Are you sure you are not this fellow?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae4U4QQrEvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WZnAZC4g4o


Back to the stove

I suggest you remove the fins and run a test without the vortex, both with wood feeding chamber and also without wood feeding chamber. Make a video of this test. After this trial, weld the fins 90 degrees one in relation to the other. Use an angle iron to help you weld straight. Then, run a test with the fins in the new position both with wood feeding chamber and also without wood feeding chamber. Make a video and show us both videos.

Is the riser tube taller than the wood feeding chamber? IF it is, I think that the design of your stove is very sound and it has to work, it is just a question of fine tunning.
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:32 am

ok so i did what you suggest- i did a test burn without the feed chamber BUT with a new fins that i made, this time welded 90 degrees to each other  , it burned ok, then i spot weld the feed chamber and light up again- it worked beautifully! - it took a little time to warm up and still its only spot welded so alot of air come from everywhere but the vortex was amazing- went out from the riser tube, very little smoke, and very good air intake. i also added the secondary air intake pipes which i made out of 3\4 inch pipe-


yes the riser is more long then the feed chamber, but i think that its not matter because i seal the feed chamber and control the air that the rocket can get inside, but maybe im wrong.. correct me if i miss somthing..



- now the main issue is the door- im thinking about it day and night and i stil dont know how to build it.
i have a glass 20cmX30cm - suggestions?
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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:31 pm

Glad to see the stove is working properly. Look at my videos, I have some ideas on how to frame the glass in the door and how to frame the door and weld it to the stove in a fairly air tight way. I suggest you make an air vent at the top of the glass window, with a deflector for the air so it runs along the window to avoid and remove sooth. Beside that, In this type of wood feeding chamber you need some type of air supply that runs from the top to the bottom to drag all the volatiles the wood releases, otherwise you may get "back puffing". Now that you are going to build the chimney exit, I have more suggestions, first, build the chimney exit so its lower level is a couple of cm above the top of the combustion chamber. This way you are always certain the stove will work and it will be easier to fire up. The chimney exit can be a bit lower but wood burning can slow down a bit and will be a bit more difficult to fire up. Second, make a dumper for the chimney exit, like this way you can save a lot of fuel and still achieve high heat. Third, make a sealed door at the chimney exit so you can clean the inside of the heat exchanger.

Could you please give us details in pictures or in a video on how the secondary air is installed? Do you feel any smell of smoke after the stove starts burning hot? How will you remove ashes from the stove?
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:59 pm

The vortex look good but I think you should try experimenting with a larger opening between the half circle plates that create your vortex.

Try experimenting with increasing the opening between the vortex plates, it will be interesting to see what kind of pattern it gives, as well a greater opening will reduce the restriction.

I am thinking if you can put a curve in the ends of the plates, a convex this will create a greater opening for the vortex to really gain velocity.

Great fabrication work!
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:00 am

you mean 95 or 100 degrees open between the plates? i thought the opposite-close the plates less then 90 degrees , about 85 or 80- in order to let the fire spin more fast and shorter the distance between the rounds that the fire making on the way up the riser. and thanks!
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:33 am

have made some progress.
cut the opening for the frame, the air intake will be two holes on each side f the frame, with a door to control it. a pipe will take the air down to the bottom and out to the glass through little holes in the pipe. now you are seeing the steel plate which is the door and the glass will be in the middle. in this point i need some help.
the steel plate is 4mm thick. the glass is the same maybe little thicker. any suggestion?
im trying t find heat resistant flat rope, to wrap the glass but i only found a round rope 10mm thick. i will use it for the door , and im thinking on a solution for the glass.

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caotropheus
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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Sat Jan 04, 2014 3:54 pm

The glass I buy is 5 mm thick. The steel I use for the door is 8 mm. Like this way I can frame in air tight the glass to the door

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PZXjcxixN4
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aravaron



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PostSubject: Re: new rocket stove mass heater (and an not successful old one)   Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:13 pm

ok ! more progress in this video-



feel free to comment! i need it:)
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