mig welding

for those that are struggerling to mig weld try here

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/tutorial.htm

mig-welding.co.uk click on home and then click upon migwelding tutorial im pretty new to mig welding myself and ive picked it up easily and yes i am on that forum as well from reading and then trying to do a piece via 3mm ive learnt how it should look and its techniches needed and yes ive picked it well enough to do cars gas burner and other things infact tonight i was showing another and they got it spot on also it does depend on your mig welder your using as well

i have sip and also clark mig welders both 150 amp as better usage any lower than 150 your going to struggle getting proper welds therefore you will use arc welding for cheapness instead

i cant link pages yet site wont let me for 7 days

extra info on welding

square tubing



thin steel






take note of this one



flux core

Hi Gadily - thanks very much for posting this. These videos are really great!

Good stuff Gadily, thanks for posting this.

[quote="gadily"]for those that are struggerling to mig weld try here

I have been a little hesitant in replying to this post for fear of maybe not correctly wording my thoughts. In return sounding harsh for others who may read this, who are having difficulties with mig or any other type of welding process.

I have always been very passionate about welding, so passionate that I pursued a welding degree. So that one day I can stand up in front of a classroom at a  post secondary trades college, and teach welding technology.I am 45 years old with two worn out shoulder joints from work, and I still don't know it all about welding.

I have been very blessed and fortunate to have had the opportunities, to have had such a successful career in welding. I am not making reference to the monetary side of being an accomplished welder.I see a bigger picture in being able to give back to the trades, anyway

There are a lot of good and bad videos out on the net for people to reference for help.Knowing how to weed through them if your not all that experienced in the area, can also be time consuming and overwhelming.

A good example of struggling with a mig welding would be this, welding on New Iron VS welding on Used Iron. Same thickness of metal, same settings on the wire machine, only thing different is, used dirty, rusty or painted iron. Now your struggling and what are you going to do?

Its unrealistic for anyone to think, without having first dedicated the many hundreds of hours practicing welding. Your more then likely going to have struggles with the welding process until you get it figured out.

There is a saying that goes something like this, You first have to learn how to crawl before you can walk. Welding is the same way, stick arc welding learned first before mig wire welding second. This alone will considerable help with anyone first time mig welding.

I have always had an open door policy for anyone wanting to learn how to weld, I don't criticize anyone for trying. I am always more then willing to chat with others who have questions or who may be struggling. Because there was a day, I was that guy who struggled with the welding processes. I was very thankful for those who gave me the time of day and helped me alone. So this is kind of my way of saying thanks by being able to return the favor and help others if I can. 

there is a few reasons why i posted this post

the site i sent them too is a proper welding place does arc, mig, tig welding on there i know there is a usa forum for there mig welding but people have a habit of youtubing often

but im one of these people i will try anything once and with welding its the same thoe can be the wrong thing in the first place what may look ok maybe not ok and maybe unsafe to use

however ive already arc welded before so ive had some use with it my problem is my nerves kick in and the rod is everywhere sometimes im spot on more than often its all over the place

as you quoted with metal you are right always make sure work surfaces are clean same goes for when welding any sort of metal with some metals whats old is different to whats new as different mixes was used then to what is now

Gadily, I think your starting this topic was a great idea and it has an importance place on this Forum. Welding plays a very big part in the building of these types of RS.

I do realize that some people have limited resources in the tools and equipment they have to use in the building of their RS, so they have to do the best with what they have available.

Helpful tips, tricks and You Tube videos are a great resources to have available for anyone who may be struggling with a specific welding process.  

You refer nerves kick as being a problem in your  stick welding, there is a few different things to try to over come that. Mine was no Coffee in the morning if I knew I had  important welding that needed to be done. I also never encourage anyone to weld with  both hands with either stick or mig. There is a few simple things a person can do to have a steady arc with the use of only one hand.

Sometimes practice, trial and error is the best teacher, personally I always found it to be a little easier in listening to those who knew exactly what they were talking about. As my years of working in the industry progressed, working smarter and not hard was becoming more and more appealing to me. 

I just ran across this on the net, Not sure if this link has been posted by anyone to the Forum yet or not? Lots of good information worthy of a re-post!       

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com/

dkwelder, I am thinking man if you have a video camera it would be cool if you could do some basic welding vids.

Not being condensending here.

Trying2Hard wrote:

dkwelder, I am thinking man if you have a video camera it would be cool if you could do some basic welding vids.

Not being condensending here.

Thanks for the kind words of encouragement,  If I had video capability, I fear my videos would resemble watching A Looney Toons Cartoon,  :P  Rather than a informational How to Video.

As you know, the internet is loaded with great how to welding videos. I have been very fortunate over the years to have been around some of the, I feel well respected Masters of their Craft/Trade.

It was explained to me that Welder are a lot like Doctors, ranging from General Practice to Brain Surgeons.

Having the ability to know a little about all the different types of correct welding process, Is different then those who choose to specialize in a certain area of welding.

This doesn't necessarily make one welder better over the others, I feel this just widens out the playing field of welding knowledge.      

heres another bit of info trying2hard reminded me about mig wire sizes

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/calculator.htm

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/power-settings.htm

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/wire-speed.htm

http://www.weldersuniverse.com/MIG_wire.html

we'll explain welding motion in laymans terms.

Its like running a bead of caulk, without wiping it with you stinky finger.
The motion, angle ect, and bead width, and what it should look like.

Wow, just found this...Awesome resource guys!!! I realize I'm pretty late to this discussion, but thanks so much for putting this info out there on the forum.

I will definately fit into the going to struggle with welding catagory! Ive only played around for an hour or two with a MIG.

Im going to sort through all the links above and check it all out. I have a question about what type of welder to be looking for given that I will be working with steel of some thickness and possibly SS.

If anyone wants to chime in, feel free....

Seems like a MIG is appealing, but that I should start with Stick. There are a million diff welders available here in the US. I dont want to buy a rig now and then another one soon after that when I realize I dont have enough juice. SO I;m looking for something I can learn and practice on, then be able to fab my stove as well. How much power/ what size should I be looking for to build a stout stove with?

Thanks guys! Since we are welding these stoves, or parts of them together, I'd love to see more discussions as there has to be more fools like me on here who found the forum b/c they want to fab a stove and have zippo for welding expirence hahahaha.

Also T2H, I remember hearing you mention some techniques, (maybe Korean?) to deal with heat changes and SS? anything to share? I have read about SS being a bit touchy when it comes to heat transfer and that affecting welds. Plus we are putting metal through a quick spike and heat from room temp to 1000 degrees and doing it day after day. Even without much welding experience, I can tell thats gonna be some stress!!! I'd love to hear some thoughts and lessons learned about how welding gets specialized in this hot and cold world stoves are putting it through and what ha sbeen done to overcome the challenges unique to what's going on in this forum.

cheers

im using a 150te clarke mig welder

ive used it to weld 5mm to 3mm and also ss

but as a true guide follow this info

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/buying.htm

take note of the v weld

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/clarke-90.htm

Hi Guys

I'm also a welder of 30 years experience, as of this year.  I first fiddled with oxy-acetylene welding (strictly amateur then, in a friend's workshop) in 1984 and was regularly using it by 1985.  I got my own workshop in 1987 and became an accomplished (enough) stick welder within a year.  In 1989 I went on a local college welding course, two evenings a week for three years.  I followed the college example and bought a Cebora 250 amp MIG (415v 3 phase input) in early 1990.  That machine is still going strong and must have put down a million miles of wire since new.  I have actually used it to do some welds today.

I will second DKs comment about Welding Tips and Tricks on You Tube.  Jody is one of the best welders out there and his video productions are excellent.  Watch all the videos on MIG (or stick or TIG or whatever) and you will learn a lot from them.

I will mildly disagree with DK about first trying stick and gas before moving to MIG.  It is excellent practice and will tune your hand co-ordination, but - is it really necessary for DIY and home-projects welding?  Unless you're in the trade and looking to make money from it, I would counsel against spending lots of money on plant and consumables for something you might not use too much.  Better to spend what money you have on a new and good quality MIG welder.  Spend as much as possible to get the best quality machine you can.

What type or make?  There are quite a few good makes.  Miller, ESAB, Lincoln - but how can I not advise getting a Cebora?  Twenty five years service and used almost daily for all those years (yes, even hundreds of weekends) - I cannot complain.  As and when (touch wood) my Cebora gives up the ghost, I will be looking to buy another of the same make.

Most people will only have 230v single phase supply (in the UK).  It is possible to get up to about a 180 amp machine on this power supply, quite possibly a 200 amp machine (though rare).  Make 150 amps your absolute minimum, but preferably more.  Make sure you spend the wrong side of £500 if you can - possibly up to £1000.  You will get a good machine for that.  Make sure the machine will take the large 15kg spools of wire, currently about £30 - £35.  The wire will last months or even a year or more for home and hobby welding.  The smaller spools of wire (5kg) are extremely uneconomical.

Shielding gas - better to use argon/CO2 mixes (helium or neon mixes more common in the US I believe).  Straight CO2 gas of the siphon-type cylinder (important) can be used but is more messy (far more spatter).  These CO2 cylinders are the type used in pub cellars to pump up the beer to the bar.  But you're much better off renting a full size argon cylinder from BOC or Air Products.  The gas will last months or more, although you will pay continuous monthly rental on the cylinder - and it isn't getting any cheaper.  Currently about £20 per month rental for a large Argon mix cylinder from Air Products.  You have to establish an account with them and pay by monthly Direct Debit.  The gas isn't cheap anymore.  I think it was more or less £90 for a full cylinder of 'Corgon 5' a couple of months ago.  I remember when it was only £21 in 1990.  Corgon 5 is 93/5/2 Argon/CO2/Oxygen and a good mix for general MIG welding.

OK - if you are looking to take up welding as a 'hobby' and for personal projects, then I'm afraid you will have to accept that it's not the most inexpensive pastime out there.  You will have to spend some decent money on the machine, the gas and cylinder is an ongoing expense and the wire needs to be bought.  You will need an argon regulator (about £25) and a flow meter (much recommended but not essential - about £15).  You need a mask, preferably an auto-darkening one (but not essential) which are £100 minimum for a decent one.  You need some gauntlets, a bag full of contact tips (50p each) and a tub of 'Tip Dip' (£5) and maybe some anti-spatter spray (but I only rarely use it).  You need good COTTON overalls and stout working clothes  - NOT nylon or other flammable fabrics.

You should be able to lay a good bead of MIG weld (with initial instruction) within an hour.  You should be able to do this fairly regularly on your own within a day.  Within about 100 hours of practice (say a few weeks) you should be quite accomplished.  You will keep learning because your initial work laying beads flat-down on the same thickness of plate will then need modifying as you learn different positions (vertical, overhead, around pipe, etc) and different thicknesses.  Most of all, what you need to learn is the SOUND ( a kind of flat crackle) and the LOOK of the finished weld.  This is not everything in weld testing, but you won't be doing coded work in industry and needing X Rays and Ultrasound.  As my old tutor used to say - if it doesn't look good then it probably isn't good.  

To be honest with you - don't weld vehicles for the purposes of structural repair.  Make sure you have a few years experience behind you and are aware of failed welds - how, why and what to look for.  Never weld a vehicle in any way when alone.  There's too much flammable material about and you might well be in an unsighted and contorted position.  Vehicles can set on fire and burn to the ground in a minute - and that's without the fuel tank in the equation.  I've seen two vehicles seriously burnt in a matter of minutes because welders were alone and by the time they were aware it was too late - for the vehicle although fortunately not for themselves.  You might extinguish the fire before the fuel tank blows (if you're lucky) but you can almost guarantee the wiring loom will be seriously damaged, which in itself can constitute a write-off.

Don't weld near de-greasing plant or on components that have been de-greased using Trichloro-ethylene or Carbon Tetrachloride or similar old-style solvent de-greasing agents.  The vapours from these solvents can break down within a welding arc to create Phosgene - Mustard Gas.

Wire size (diameter)?  I always use 1mm MIG wire.  Some people prefer 0.8mm and this may be useful for thinner sheet materials (though 0.8mm will weld thicker plate too).  But there's that bit more 'punch' with 1mm.  I can easily weld 1mm sheet with 1mm wire (turned down, quicker travel) but can also easily weld 12mm plate or bar as well.  In fact I could weld 25mm plate in multiple passes with no trouble at all - or even tissue-thin sheet on panels and exhausts (but you'll need some experience for that).

One thing about MIG that you might otherwise get away with with stick welding (somewhat) and even more so with oxy-acet welding is the dislike of anything other than clean steel.  MIG welding doesn't like any paint, grease, other crud or rust - not even surface rust.  It WILL spatter badly, burn back and ruin tips.  You will get showered with sparks and suffer a few stinging spark burns.  You will also be highly likely to get failed welds.  This is another reason vehicle welding is tricky.  Always clean your metal to be welded as much as possible.  It doesn't need to be mirror-finish and high polished but any paint or crud needs to be removed.  Rust is a problem and needs to be sanded off (light rust) or ground back to bright (heavier rust).  This is unavoidable.

Finally, for now, might I also disagree with DK (sorry mate) regarding using one hand when you have two available.  Indeed using one hand will gradually improve co-ordination but be honest - using two hands for almost everything of this nature is bound to be easier than using one.  If your other hand is free - use it.  Put a welding gauntlet on your spare hand (I usually have  a bare hand on the gun) and use it to hold or press components to be welded (sometimes) or otherwise as a rest for your gun hand.  Americans might appreciate it's a bit like the advice for handguns.  You might be able to shoot with one, but isn't the best advice to use a two-handed grip or grip and steady?  You could say welding is a bit like shooting.  Get as comfortable and balanced as possible, and use the parts the Lord gave you (two hands and arms) whenever you can.  You will get much better results.

And in any case, it's a fair bet that most of us here are on the wrong side of 25 years of age.  It might not be at all easy or practicable to be learning one-handed co-ordination at an age somewhat above that of a young man.

There's loads more.  Any questions - pose them here.  Any machines you might be thinking of buying - post the link here first.  For now - go and watch and listen to Jody at Welding Tips and Tricks.  The MIG series of videos he has done are excellent.

Welding stainless steel - you can only do this properly using stainless steel filler wire and different gas mixtures. It will be horrendously expensive. It's far more practical to weld stainless by stick welding, using stainless rods. If you use regular mild steel MIG wire to weld stainless steel you WILL get weld decay and a total dilution of any anti-corrosion property of the SS. The welded area will be depleted of Chromium and Nickel. In addition there's a good chance of Chromium Carbide forming in the weld and the heat-affected zone (alongside the weld). Chromium Carbide is a hard and very brittle substance and will almost certainly crack and fail quite quickly. It might not be the end of the world inside a stove, but then again you don't want SS riser tubes and inlets to come apart - not least because you can't see them and won't be aware.

So you might need a stick welder too. But a decent MIG machine should come with a stick welding feature too. You simply uncouple the welding leads to the MIG part of the unit and use the basic transformer to power a stick set-up. Stick welders are basically just a transformer (variable current). The bonus with a good machine is that the transformer will be DC output, which gives interchangeability of polarity for stick welding (DC positive or DC negative). DC arcs are very smooth. AC stick welding transformers do work but are more erratic, more general purpose, cheaper machines (as stand-alone stick welders) and a little bit 'yesterday'. All the best rods usually require a DC output.

Gadily, the chart in the 1st link is helpful. Its good to know, before buying anything, that manufacture's claims might not be that honest.

Paul, thanks for the detailed post, lots of good info. Much appreciated and Its giving me lots to search for on the net as well. Ill bounce some models off you and get your opinion. The only thing is Im in the US and Im guessing they are different models? But then again you do have a few years experience hahahha.

Dk's link to Cody was great, I'm watching lots of his stuff and it seems to be a great starting point!

No problem Toasty.

There isn't too much different between UK and US welding. Virtually all of what is said in Welding Tips & Tricks is understood by me.

I can't recommend those videos highly enough. They're the best videos on welding practice on You Tube. Not just me saying that - read the comments under the videos.

For advice on buying machines, specifically in the US - plenty of good information on makes and models in those videos, particular to the American market and suppliers. But post any links you like and I will have a look.

Right on Paul!
My kids are out and Im watching the vids now, ayayayay the terminology! But Im getting it, slowly.
I like that he doesn't spend ten minutes talking and storytelling, just gets to the goods.

good info paul

however people who want to just buy a mig welder or arc welder just to build a rocket burner for a one off build they are not going to pay silly money hell i didnt at that as ive got 2 machines a sip and a clarke both at 150amps

one is gasless the other is gas bottle needed i prefer the gas bottle type i also have an arc welder

if i was building a one off rocket burner i would have bought the arc welder type i know its a pain in the arse to get right by a stick though and many wont know that

i would advise if your only building one build either hire one or buy a cheapo one to build your build and then use ti for what your needing a car until it fails if under warranty take it back and get it changed if out then chuck it in the bin

but i had other projects in mind and the rocket burner wasnt one of them that came into effect once jcp stopped my income through lies and i needed something to keep me warm

i wouldnt buy a cebora now from what ive read its no longer the same as what you and i know off by old and bloody good builds then
i would buy a portamig instead on same forums i have posted up

From just watching Cody's vids and some others, Im leanin twards Gadily's opinion. It seems like a stick welder will make more sense for me at this time. Im looking into multi use machines as well, but for the price, A mig with enough oomph to weld thicker gauges seems to be very expensive. I can get a good lincoln buzz box for about $200 US used on craigslist. A/C D/C version for $300.

I do however like the lincoln Power mig 210, but not the price. heres the link....

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K3963-1%28LincolnElectric%29

Im going to keep hunting though. It just seems like a Stick, for much lower cost, will give me the ability to get welding(and buy some grinder wheels, electrodes helmet, pic hammer etc) with a lot less money upfront.

Paul, I'd be interested in more of your thoughts

Thanks Gadily

You are correct of course about people not wanting or needing to spend big money on welding kit just for the sake of building a burner. If money wasn't such an object then many people might not be looking to build economical stoves in the first place. They might as well just turn up the gas central-heating.

However, I will counter that slightly by saying that once a person gets a grasp of a bit of welding, they tend to suddenly have all kinds of ideas of other things they want to make. It might begin with a simple stove but then it might develop into a better model, a Mk 2. Then it might develop into making another for a friend and the next thing there will be all kinds of ideas and plans on the drawing board.

For sure the cheapest equipment option is a plain stick welder, even just an uncomplicated AC 'buzz-box' as they are sometimes called. No gas, no cylinders, no real fancy equipment.

In may ways a stick welder is also the safest. There is still a risk of burns and electrocution (with sloppy equipment and bad practices) but there are at least no flammable or asphyxiant gases, no high pressure cylinders and no open flames.

Stick welding is still very relevant and reliable and one can get very good at it - but it does take a lot of practice. However, once a MIG is used, an operator will always go to that method for most production work. In many ways, MIGs are just so easy to use, with much less practice or skill needed.

so true paul i prefer mig myself than i do with the arc and the mig was easier to learn and pick up even though i still get it wrong now most of the welds are good with the mig and i can do just about anything with the mig welder the arc is stored for the heavier jobs needed

usa version

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mig+welder&rt=nc&_dmd=2

Toasty

Yes you are correct, as I've just said in the previous post.  I was being a little too pro' and imagining it was me buying the kit.

If you want to get started, then indeed a stick welder is the quickest and cheapest option.  There are also some very good vids on stick welding by our man at Tips & Tricks.  You've probably watched them already.

If you get a stick welder, then buy a packet of general purpose (6013) rods and just spend the day burning them away in practice.  Use some (clean) pieces of scrap to practice on - of a decent size and thickness so as not to glow red too quickly.  Say a piece of 10mm plate of a foot square.  Lay beads down, parallel to each other to produce a 'pad' of weld.  Then lay another pad at 90 degrees over the first one - and so on.  There's a video or two showing this.

Where stick welders become more difficult is in welding on thinner material - say 3mm or less.  It's easy to burn straight through.  However, in stove building it likely and advisable not to use thin plate, for obvious reasons.

That machine you linked to looks a good one.  Up to 220 amps on 230v.  A stick welder too and even a TIG welding facility.  A thousand dollars then - not that cheap but you get a lot of kit for that.  That's about £600.  Like I said, the wrong side of £500 gets you a good machine.

I don't know about where you are in the US and what the local scene is, but here in the UK you can probably get a decent 2nd-hand stick welder for £50 (ebay and the like).  That's only about $85.

Paul,
Thanks so much for the info!!!

I really want the combo rig you checked out. But probably will find a Buzz box and do just what you said... start laying some beads and practice. AS my first stove will probably be a heavy monster and over time I will hopefully get into some of the finer stuff like I see T2H doing, i will get the Buzzer, then want a nicer unit with more versatility.

This has been a great conversation to be part of, In three days, I have learned so much!

anyone else care to share their welding expirence in regards to equipment?

And I like this goofy guy as well.....

and this vid was helpful....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvv4ApYMVE